Post by venadochivo on Apr 1, 2018 13:34:44 GMT -5
7 babies were born on our small farm yesterday to three does. The one that had triplets is pacing and not allowing kids to nurse. I observed all of them nursing yesterday, but today it has seemed today as if the mother doe is not complete or was unsure about her new kids (pacing and stamping the ground). Will one nursing of colostrum be sufficient for the kids? I'm thinking to try bottle feeding them if the mother won't let them take to her.
Hi Martin, Are the goats all running loose so the other Nanny goats could get their scent on the kids? Did the Buck get scent on the kids or someone touch the billy or something he peed and then touch the kids? That right there can cause a doe who just delivered to get really hyped up. Some does will even pound a kid for billy stench so that is something to be careful of. I would rub some of the does urine, milk or any discharge scent from the doe on the kids again. Back of the chaps, top line of back, top of head and most important under the ears. The Nanny will always sniff under the ears to check kids. I would pen the doe with her kids separate at first. Each doe here got a kidding pen. I could put them up out of hog panels and clavicles attached to eye bolts. Then take them down later when they were not needed. The Colostrum is important to get into the kids within the first 12-24 Hours. I would be sure that all of them had some to start their immune systems. If you want to bottle feed them you could milk some out and do that or use a needless syringe. I would try to first work with the Nanny and see if her bag is so full she might need some milked out so the kids can latch. I would freeze any of that first milk I did not use. Might come in handy later for some other does kids. There is trick to getting kids started nursing you just stick the kid up under there and get the teat between your thumb and index finger and put the kids beak in the palm of your hand and lightly milk the teat some while putting it in the kids mouth, it should latch. Might take a few times. Also helps to pull the kid back a little with the teat in the mouth until it realizes to hold on and nurse. Another thing is to take a rag and gently tickle their butt and chaps to get them to nurse. That is what their Nanny does. First though she needs to realize the kids are hers and not another does. Or worse, a humans who could of got scent on them from perfume, scented towels with fabric softener, hand cleaners or the bucks pee. So I would get that does scent on some paper towels and rub those kids back down. Bottle kids are a real chore and running to a barn so often in the first weeks usually people put them in the house. Then they get pounded when they try to join the herd because they have no Nanny they bonded with. Some new Nanny's do get confused at first especially if they did not help clean up the kids at birth. It is important to hand the kid to the doe to smell and lick after navel dipping. Then help clean with paper towels.
In your post you also mentioned not complete. Did you mean competent or did you mean complete as you wonder if there is another kid she did not deliver? If that is the question you can check the doe by first gently pushing in on her sides with your palms, starting at the top behind the rib cage and see if you feel anything or like something get knocked off a shelf inside the doe. Then get behind her and wrap your hands around her and make a fist inside one hand and gently (she is sore from delivery) push up wards right in front of her bag. There is triangle there that should push up a little bit. It a kid is there you will feel it. Be careful though because her glands are also there for her bag. If it pushes up a little and bounces right back like your hand pushed on a trampoline she should not have any more inside. I will say though that I have had does deliver a quad kid late by surprise. One that was stuck real high up that did not drop until I pushed her side like I described.
Post by venadochivo on Apr 1, 2018 21:35:50 GMT -5
I am so grateful for your support. I followed all of your suggestions, and I believe we had some success. I rubbed down the rejected buckling with some afterbirth and the next thing we knew, he was nursing. I did not see any real aggressive nursing on the part of any of the kids, but there was some, and we are hoping that what they got from the mama doe and what we gave them via syringe will keep them strong and trying for more.
Concerning you other question, I did mean "complete". There seemed to be some indication (and still does) that she is unsettled. By the way, she is a Sanaan, about 2 years old. She dropped the last of her three yesterday (Saturday) evening about 8 p.m. Is it possible she could still have one in her - it's now 8:35 p.m. on Sunday.
If you did not see her pass the placenta, it is possible there is a retained kid. I would watch her closely. I would NOT attempt to do an internal check as her cervix is likely closing/closed enough that you could cause damage. I would suggest bumping her to check for additional kids as GoatGuru described in her second post.
It is possible she passed it and ate it or it is buried in bedding if you did not see it.
Is this her first set of kids? She may just be pacing due to being a nervous new mom.
Watch her closely. Monitor for any signs of fever or not eating/drinking that would be signs of illness.
Your welcome, glad to help. I advise watching her as Goatmom has suggested for signs of infection. Also checking externally as I suggested but at this point I would be hesitant to lube up and check her inside because her cervix is closing. It would take a Vet to give her a shot of something to get the fetus out if there is another one inside. Unless it is stuck inside her pin joints but if it is you would be able to feel either its nose on feet, nose only legs back, front feet head backwards stuck or head down stuck, or breech , white feet bottoms up in the last four to six inches of her, but if you do examine her that way she would need antibiotic treatment. Also I suggest if you do that to sterilize the nitrate gloves with either the pink antifungus spray if you have some or betadine because they are not sterile and then use Lube on the glove. I would not go in any further at this point past delivery. If you find something there though you are going to have to be careful you don't rip her or prolapse her because she does not sound like she is pushing. She may be too tired plus the hormones to push are not strong if the kid is dead. Usually if they are in trouble they break a sweat around the brows, box the ears up like the flying nuns hat, lay out and lift up with the body some rocking off a hip, maybe push maybe give up and start grinding the teeth. That is an extreme pain signal. At that I would check her or get a Vet because probably she is in trouble. Or else if you moved her to a different area she may just be panicky. I have had does get confused and become flighty after moving them from where the kids were born to a new area especially if the kids were not moved low to the floor where she could see them, right with her. Some people make a drag cart for that. Sounds like you are doing great. I hope you figure out what is going on. If you notice any thing like head pressing, twitching, jerking of the head,circling, she would need propylene glycol or some Keto Plus Gel. 6cc from the cow tube every six hours no more than 18 cc. So three treatments drenched with a needless syringe. Also Power Punch may help her with some energy or 1 TBSP blackstrap molasses, 1 TBSP Kayro Syrup in a quart of warm water. If you think its Ketosis then add 1 Tbsp of Corn Oil to that mixture. The longest I ever had a doe surprise me with a kid was 6 hours. I have heard stories though of people finding more kids later than that. I will say that I always wondered if all the kids were out even if I did help pull them unless I had my hand all the way inside the womb.
If there is a kid in there and the cervix closed it will calcify. Where the sacs on the kids thick? If so she may need some selenium. There is a bit of that in the Power Punch. If you really think one is in there though I suggest calling a Vet because the medicine you would need is RX. Does with retained fetus's get sick and abort when bred later on.
The mama doe seems to be healthy. She is eating and drinking energetically. She is not a first-time nanny. In fact, the does she dropped at her last pregnancy both dropped twins on the same day as she had the triplets (I made an amateur mistake and did not separate the young does out when I brought the buck in; they both got pregnant at 3.5 months, but both seem to be doing well, and their kids seem healthy). The one thing that I did notice when her daughter gave birth was that she was licking the kids as if they were her own. I moved the daughter's kids and the daughter to a smaller pen not too long after. I wonder if that could have confused her? She does continue to bleat and look around as if she is missing her kids. The kids are nursing, but I'm not sure she is letting much milk out. They suck for a little while and then seem to give up. However, they do not look sickly or overly weak. They were playing around a bit this morning. I will attempt the external review you recommended; I'm not experienced enough yet to attempt anything internal.
Of my four pregnant does, the last one kidded quads last night. I have attached a photo. It appears that one has some problem with her leg (see kid to right, the one that is nursing; she hasn't given up on herself). Any special considerations you would recommend?
Those babies are going to take lots of little drinks. Don't expect very young kids to drink for any length of time...small, frequent feedings is the way they do it. If she is not engorged and so tight that the kids cannot latch on, they should be fine. Just watch to make sure they are peeing/pooping and active....all good signs that they are getting enough to drink.
Everything sounds normal to me too. Another good sign the kids are getting enough to eat is if they get up and stretch. That little looker with the fancy neck up under the bag just has a little bit of lax tendon probably from being cramped during the pregnancy. It will straighten out. Probably would help to give her .05 Power Punch or the newborn dosage of Selenium and Vit E gel. That is sold on line from Jeffer's. Too much is toxic so the correct dosage is important but it helps with weak legs in kids. The other Nanny mentioned might be afraid of stepping on the kids. I agree that the Doe's Nanny licking the kids may have confused her in her role as to who was responsible for taking care of the new kids. In her mind she is a JR doe if she was still in with her Nanny. I have one old doe that would go up and down the line of pens and stand up and tell those JR does that delivered what to do and sometimes it seemed like she was checking to be sure the kids were not hers. Then one year one kid did look exactly like hers and I ended up penning that mother hen goat right next to the JR doe because otherwise she would jump in the pen and I was afraid she would jump on the kids. So that pen had a co-parent nosing in and later when all was let outside she would try to herd the kids away from the doe who delivered them.