Hi I am trying to find out the pros and cons on IM or SQ and what do the majority of yall do when it comes to injections. I read on another website that this lady gave ALL her medicine/vaccine jections IM she said it gets to them quicker and lessens the possibility of a knot or abcess....then I read that giving SQ correctly will not cause a knot ...but if not inserting the needle all the way through the skin (between the layers) will cause a knot and the goat does not get the benefit of the medication/vaccine....and on and on.....so I would like to know all of your thoughts on this. I do know that I have had my goats for almost a year now and so far never needed to give them an injection...but the CDT is coming up.... I have pulled out on their skin in several areas as noted on websites just to see what I could do...and still cannot get enough skin pulled out....so I am sorta leaning to the IM injections...which I know to pull back on the syringe to make sure I am not in a vein...please help!!
Post by angelsprite on Dec 6, 2009 19:40:43 GMT -5
Bsjohnson, I'm with Donnie on that. In other animals, dogs, horses, etc, the recommendations are for IM. Medications do get absorbed faster, but in the case of vaccination, those are administered SubQ in all the different animals, unless you're talking about a nasal administration or oral. Medications will get absorbed fast enough even with SubQ and I've taken to giving SubQ to other animals where IM might be more painful, like kittens with tiny muscles and birds. The argument for SubQ injection in goats has to do with tearing up muscle tissue and I can only assume there is bleeding into the meat. I'm not certain about that. I haven't read any detailed articles on it, but that's what I would figure if they are worried about "tearing the delicate muscle tissues of goats". The knots you see after vaccination frequently appear even with perfectly administered injections. Those knots appear in goats and animals that have a good, strong immune response after vaccination. Since you want a good immune response, the knots are actually a good sign, they are just unsightly. I don't worry about them at all. I'm always just glad to know the vaccination "took". For people who show their goats, I'm sure it's a headache and I understand why they wouldn't want those lumps on their goats. I hope this helps you.
bsjohnson, An im injection is living proof that goats can fly. I accidentally gave Hercules an im injection while trying to do it sq. I'm straddled on his back, my wife is in front of him holding his horns. When it happened I ended up riding him like a horse for 4 or 5 feet and my wife was knocked clear across the catch pen - 8 ft. He wasn't being mean either. Once the needle enters the muscle you must inject the (warm) medicine slowly - yeah right. When I "used" to do them I had to get it in asap. A lot of the goats would let out a scream, hit the ground, and struggle to get back up. Not a pretty site. That's why all my meds are orally or sq now. If I think lungworms are present I'll do both.
Post by Rose's Goats on Dec 7, 2009 12:59:51 GMT -5
I recommend SQ injections for CDT. I give them in the armpit where the front leg meets the body.
To do an SQ: Fill your 3cc syringe and 22 gauge needle with the proper amount of medicine. Put the cap on the needle and keep it close at hand. Tie the goat to a post and give it some food to keep it occupied. Take an alcohol swab or a cotton ball with rubbing alcohol poured on it and rub it on the spot where you will be giving the injection. Try to rub down through the fur to the skin because this will lessen the amount of possible abcesses that can occur with a dirty injection. Then grab a pinch of skin with your thumb and forefinger. Uncap your needle with your other hand and insert the needle into the tent of skin perpendicular to your fingers. Then push the needle in until you feel a lack of resistance as you go through the skin and into the space between the skin and muscle. Pull back on the plunger of the syringe slightly to make sure that you don't aspirate any blood into the syringe. If you do aspirate some blood then your needle is in a vein. Immediately pull the needle out of the animal, throw it out, and start over. If you do not aspirate anything then you can push the plunger all the way down and empty the syringe into the animal. Then gently pull the needle out while twisting it slightly. This will help to seal the needle hole and not let medicine leak out.
If you need to do an IM injection for any reason, I recommend using the muscle on the neck of the goat and not the muscle of the butt or thighs. There usually isn't enough muscle in the butt or thighs of a goat to get a good injection without risk of hitting the sciatic (sp.) nerve or bone, both of these things hurt like crazy if you hit them with a needle and paralysis could occur if you hit the nerve.
Injections aren't that hard to do and once you get a little practice in, they become easy.
Post by angelsprite on Dec 7, 2009 14:26:09 GMT -5
I was just wondering if anyone has tried using the Boehringer 8 way vaccine. It is the only one the nearest feed store carries, so I've been driving further afield and paying exhorbitant prices for the CD/T. I don't mind driving or paying WAY TOO MUCH for the regular vaccine, because I haven't used the 8 way and I worry there might be problems with it. I am just interested to know if anyone else here uses it and if they have had no porblems, or have seen problems?
Thank all of you so much for your replies....so it seems that most of yall are in favor of SQ injections...so I guess I have really got to learn how to pull out this skin....it is sooo tight !!!! No !! I don't want anything to happen like Garysfarmer episode !!!! Rose's Goats....when you say in the arm pit where the front leg meets the body...are you looking at the side of the goat....???? or are you talking about between the front legs where the leg meets the body?? Thanks for all of your help!!
I agree with everyone else, never give a goat an injection IM, always SQ. I have a vet kill one of my goats by giving it a shot IM,(even though I can't prove it). He said that he had never heard of such a thing. It was late at night and the goat went into shock and I couldn't get hold of him by then. We now keep epinephrine here at home at all times. It is hard to find a vet around here that will sell it to you. I finally got the one that gave my goat a shot Im to sell it to me but only a couple of doses at a time.
Gary, That's true about the goats' metabolism. They absorb meds much faster than other animals and metabolize differently so that meds are processed out much faster, which is why goats will get higher dosages of many meds. Higher dosages are needed so that the meds will remain at therapeutic levels long enough to be effective.
BsJohnson, Regarding the epinephrine. If you can get it from a vet, then it's good to have on hand. If you can't get it, you can use Benadryl in case of any allergic reaction. If the goat begins acting anxious, harrassed, itchy, bothered, dizzy, or if their respiration begins to get shut off by swelling, you can administer Benadryl over the course of 24 hours and usually get it under control. I don't use epinephrin for mine. My daughter is allergic to bees and wasps and we keep epinephrin handy, but THAT is for my little girl, in case she gets stung. With the number of bees and wasps out here, I wouldn't chance using the medication she needs on the goats. Benadryl worked well in one goat kid I had that reacted to the CD/T injection. I just gave him the regular capsule form. I broke it open and poured the powder on his tongue. It took about a capsule and a half, administered over the course of an hour, but he got progressively better during that time, until he was completely normal. Also, after a reaction, it's important to watch them and make sure that they don't begin reacting again after the medication wears off. Usually they don't, if you get enough of it into them. There is also injectable Benadryl, which is easier to obtain than the epinephrin. I think, once you get the hang of those SQ injections, you will like them much better than IM. I sure do. ;D
Angelsprite - thanks for telling me about the Benadryl...I need to get some and have on hand. I also read that you can use Primatene Mist and for adults 3-5 puffs in the mouth.. Thank you so much for info!!! The closer I get to CDT time I am getting anxious about pulling out their skin, getting the vaccine ALL in THERE and hopefully NO allergic reaction..... Still wanting to know where Rose is talking about when she says in the "arm pit" On the outside of the goat where the leg meets the body is like right above the elbow area and I have tried to pull skin out there....I guess I am afraid I am going to hurt them just pulling out the skin.....or is this area between the front legs where the leg meets the body????
Post by Rose's Goats on Dec 8, 2009 8:58:55 GMT -5
What I mean by "armpit" is when you look at the goat from the side, the part where the from leg meets the body above the elbow. There should be a little loose skin in there that you can get two fingers on. You don't need a huge tent to put the meds in, just a pinch. Practice on your hand: pinch a bit of skin on the back of your hand. That's how much skin you need to do a SQ. It's not much.
I have had my goats get knots where I have given their CDT shots. The knots stick around anywhere from 1 month to 3 months. Some people prefer to give their CDT shots on the underside of the body where the knot can't be seen in a show goat. I have had one injection site get an abcess. I just kept an eye on it and put some neosporin on it once the abcess popped. It was no big deal.
Rose - Thank you so much for explaining that to me....I have seen some diagrams that show that area..all of you have helped me out alot....It is so nice to be able to ask questions of other "goat" people that can help out with so many different things about goats. I have had my 11 goats for almost a year. So far I have nursed one goat back from cocidiciosis (sp?), one from bottle jaw and two goats back from pink eye(thought their eyes would never get better, but they did) Everyday I look over them really good to see if they are "off" I am always scared I will be confronted with something I know nothing about. I have tried to read alot about goats....but info from hands on like you all is priceless!!!!
Last Edit: Dec 8, 2009 19:26:50 GMT -5 by bsjohnson
Primatene Mist is Epinephrine. In the form of an inhaler, it would be great for a goat that was having a reaction with airways closing, but the goat could still breathe. It would be quicker and easier to administer than an injectable. It is primarily intended for use as a bronchodialator, in the event a reaction is closing airways. I can't advise you to use it, because it is a prescription medication and I think some folks in the FDA might take a dim view of such advisements. I can only say, IF it were legal to use such a product on a goat, it might be the very thing. ;D